Menu
SuiteCRM Pull Request Party hosted by SalesAgility
Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: Where can you find language pack downloads?

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 3 weeks ago #31373

  • horus68
  • horus68's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 571
  • Thank you received: 142
  • Karma: 30
I don't think your system will hold... but:
Create double listings and let users choose:
- Human Certified packs (with percentage done)
- Autotranslated (can include certified packs and filled to 100% with autotranslated strings)


Note: If you go for a autotranslated language ONLY it will not be done with me and I will handle the project maintenance.
As for me, i will then go outside SuiteCRM managed projects and maintain just my language pack!

I think this discussion could benefit with inputs from other SalesAgility devs
|| SuiteCRM in your language crowdin.com/project/suitecrmtranslations ||
|| FAQ - Install/Update languages sites.google.com/site/translatingsuitecrm/faq ||
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 3 weeks ago #31377

  • eggsurplus
  • eggsurplus's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Posts: 93
  • Thank you received: 24
  • Karma: 7
I think a reviewed system is a must. Can't be two different systems as no objective is fully met and only adds more confusion and translation issues. My only layer on top of the current system (I love the process you have) is to pre-seed with auto translated labels for every label that is still in English. So each language that you have in the CrowdIn project would be seeded with any labels not yet translated. So if a language is 40% translated then the 60% remaining is the auto translated labels. Only change to the current projects would be auto translating the remaining labels to then be reviewed and corrected if needed by a translator.

Once something like that is ironed out then we can get to realizing the purpose of these translations which is getting SuiteCRM into more hands.

I know I am asking a lot, but I think it is important. Is there a way to alter the translation process from English first to correct translation to instead by attempted auto translation to correct translation?

If not, I suppose we could look at just posting the % translated on the various lang pack listings on store.suitecrm.com, but this may be looked down upon by potential SuiteCRM users and a reason to move on.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 3 weeks ago #31386

  • horus68
  • horus68's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 571
  • Thank you received: 142
  • Karma: 30
eggsurplus wrote:
I know I am asking a lot, but I think it is important. Is there a way to alter the translation process from English first to correct translation to instead by attempted auto translation to correct translation.

Not on Crowdin.

Automatic seed is only available for "Automatically fill in regional dialects - Untranslated strings of regional dialects (e.g. Argentine Spanish) will automatically include completed translations from the primary language (Spanish). "

Other 2 options already in place:

- Show machine translation suggestions
Machine translations (Microsoft Translator, MyMemory) will appear as suggestions for translators in the editor.

- Use the global Translation Memory
Checking this option gives translators access to the Crowdin Global Translation Memory. It's a huge vault of existing translations contributed by previous projects.
|| SuiteCRM in your language crowdin.com/project/suitecrmtranslations ||
|| FAQ - Install/Update languages sites.google.com/site/translatingsuitecrm/faq ||
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 3 weeks ago #31388

  • horus68
  • horus68's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 571
  • Thank you received: 142
  • Karma: 30
non logged in users can now download zip files

each language zip will have this url:
https://crowdin.com/download/project/suitecrmtranslations/
+ languagecode.zip

Example for Portuguese (Portugal) pt-PT language
https://crowdin.com/download/project/suitecrmtranslations/pt-PT.zip
|| SuiteCRM in your language crowdin.com/project/suitecrmtranslations ||
|| FAQ - Install/Update languages sites.google.com/site/translatingsuitecrm/faq ||
Last Edit: 3 years 3 weeks ago by horus68.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 3 weeks ago #31389

  • horus68
  • horus68's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 571
  • Thank you received: 142
  • Karma: 30
languages available
ar-EG.zip                
bg.zip                   
ca.zip                   
cs.zip                   
da.zip                   
de.zip                   
de-CH.zip                
el.zip                   
es-ES.zip                
es-MX.zip                
et.zip                   
eu.zip                   
fa.zip                   
fi.zip                   
fr.zip                   
fr-CA.zip                
he.zip                   
hr.zip                   
hu.zip                   
hy-AM.zip                
id.zip                   
it.zip                   
ja.zip                   
ko.zip                   
lt.zip                   
mk.zip                   
nl.zip                   
pl.zip                   
pt-BR.zip                
pt-PT.zip                
ro.zip                   
ru.zip                   
si-LK.zip                
sk.zip                   
sl.zip                   
sr.zip                   
sv-SE.zip                
th.zip                   
tr.zip                   
uk.zip                   
vi.zip                   
zh-CN.zip                
zh-TW.zip

The correspondence with full names is under the language flag at crowdin.com/project/suitecrmtranslations
|| SuiteCRM in your language crowdin.com/project/suitecrmtranslations ||
|| FAQ - Install/Update languages sites.google.com/site/translatingsuitecrm/faq ||
Last Edit: 3 years 3 weeks ago by horus68.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 3 weeks ago #31392

  • pgr
  • pgr's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9857
  • Thank you received: 1469
  • Karma: 349
Jason

I think it's hard for you, as a native english speaker (I'm assuming that's what you are), to correctly weigh the kinds of issues other people face in their digital lives regarding translations.

For one, we're not that worried about English. Everybody learns English in school, some are really bad at it, but they are used to that fact, blame it on themselves, and in general they can get by.

Then, we're very used to using English in our computers and devices. We all started using computers and mobiles in English, before there were any translations at all. When somebody asks me about a computer problem and I'm trying to give advice, I ask "is your Windows in Portuguese or in English?", I often get the reply "I'm not sure"! They use it everyday, but they use some apps in English, others translated, and they can't even recall which they're using.

So, having an untranslated SuiteCRM is certainly not an outrage, is likely not a deal-breaker, and SuiteCRM currently looks quite well in terms of translations, it looks like a work that is advancing rapidly, one you can trust is going to achieve its goals soon enough.

Then, I don't think you're correctly weighing the problem with machine translation. It's not "90% accurate", it's an extremely irritating, misleading, offensive kind of innaccurate. It makes a person feel their being treated like a stupid monkey talking to a machine. A non-translated string generates suspension of comprehension, and people will just investigate, ask a friend, and get on with their lives; but a machine-translated string that is wrong generates confusion, mockery and dislike using the software, and feels extremely unprofessional. It's the perfect argument for anyone arguing against SuiteCRM adoption at a given company.

If I was Greek, I'd MUCH rather have a 40% translated SuiteCRM (that't probably the 40% of the suite that people actually need and use) than have a bunch of gibberish confuse me while I'm trying to learn the app and its concepts.

You should have seen the outrage here in Portugal with Microsoft's first Office translations, which were half human-translated, half machine-translated. It just wasn't a good enough translation, and people simply hated them.

So, I really have few doubts that your scheme will backfire on you in terms of driving adoption.

My SuiteCRM In-depth blog.
Thank you for always stating your SuiteCRM version, checking your logs, reading the Docs, and searching before you ask!
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 3 weeks ago #31415

  • eggsurplus
  • eggsurplus's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Posts: 93
  • Thank you received: 24
  • Karma: 7
Thanks horus68,

I'm going to try to get a proof of concept together now that the zips work.


prg,

I don't think you understand the challenge that I'm most concerned with. We get many folks coming to our site daily not to find add-ons, but to learn about SuiteCRM and to see if there are language translations. We know for a fact that they are leaving to a different CRM immediately. It's not worth their time to invest anything at the CRM discovery stage. This is the big picture issue.

I completely understand the challenges of translation. However, it is a larger concern to me that if someone is coming to SuiteCRM for the first time that they don't have these barriers to entry for their language. Each barrier (can't find translation, not a complete translation, have to go through an awkward process to contribute, etc) is a dropping off point to go to a different CRM that has their language already supported.

My goal is simply to provide them as full of a translation (verified or not) as easily as possible so as to give them a reason to continue trying out SuiteCRM. The more users we get on SuiteCRM, the more contributors we get in the long term (for translations, product, documentation, etc), the better that SuiteCRM gets which means we all win.

Now that CrowdIn supports zip downloads again I can at least tackle making it easier to discover and install language packs even if they are not complete. That's a big step 1 to saving these folks.

Hope this makes more sense where I am coming from.
Last Edit: 3 years 3 weeks ago by eggsurplus.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 3 weeks ago #31416

  • pgr
  • pgr's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9857
  • Thank you received: 1469
  • Karma: 349
Ok, I see your concern... I'm probably being an idiot here, but I get the feeling you're looking at this from a "Google Analytics" perspective which is too shallow for the issues at stake.

Let me tell you my story...

I've been "adopting" SugarCRM since about 2007. I tried it about 8 different times, installing it, running it, evaluating it, before the current attempt in 2016 which is my first succesful one, which I believe is going to actually be used in the real world.

Why did I fail before? Well, even though I am a software engineer, PHP is not my area, and I am doing this part-time, unpayed, for non-profits. This means that my dedication was always limited, so I just kept getting tripped by all those permissions issues, the application breaking down completely for no apparent reason, not understanding the data model, trying Studio but facing it's limitations, trying a simple code customization and finding it extremely convoluted, losing hours with outdated, incomplete documentation online, etc, etc. I could go on. BTW, I never bothered with the translations for my language, which only came out this year (thanks to horus68).

Why did I keep coming back? Because it was free and powerful. And after the fork to SuiteCRM, more free and more powerful.

Things began to improve when I found time to really dedicate to this, learn from a book, spend hours debugging, etc. I faced the steep learning curve.

At this point (when I am quite happy with SuiteCRM) I would never recommend it to anyone that couldn't afford to get some technical help or be willing to work very long and hard to learn it himself.

This is not about captivating web searchers going through a site. Anyone considering SuiteCRM is up for weeks and weeks of web browsing, not just a few minutes.

My point is just that this is so full of hurdles that I don't believe the language pack thing is going to cost us so many people. Especially because it would set them up for a disappointment at a later stage. The machine translations could be an additional hurdle, and one that people would not always be conscious of. They would just think the product is inconsistent and user-unfriendly, when in fact it was just misleadingly translated.

Just look at so many unanswered questions on these forums, from people adopting SuiteCRM who are completely lost, and getting no answers... that's where the real adoption battle is, making it feasible and easier for them. I don't believe inconsistent language packs would help at all.

So, I find all your arguments valid, but for me they just make me conclude that we better get many languages really translated soon; not just the appearance of having them translated...

But I'm ok with you trying your approach if you really believe in it...

(and thanks for everything, you're a big part of the added value of SuiteCRM!)

My SuiteCRM In-depth blog.
Thank you for always stating your SuiteCRM version, checking your logs, reading the Docs, and searching before you ask!
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 3 weeks ago #31418

  • eggsurplus
  • eggsurplus's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Posts: 93
  • Thank you received: 24
  • Karma: 7
:) We have quite a bit in common. I appreciate the backstory. I think our stories/experiences are the minority though.

The feedback about the translations that we are getting are from direct conversations through our live chat. It's right from the horse's mouth. It's a huge mountain to climb, but it's critical to keep making SuiteCRM more accessible to the majority of folks that don't see things like us.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 2 weeks ago #31440

  • horus68
  • horus68's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 571
  • Thank you received: 142
  • Karma: 30
So now the translation "issues" are considered a major problem on adopting SuiteCRM?

- There is no CRM with more then 5 languages 99% translated. For a fact (even SuiteCRm that has only 2 languages on 99%)
- Installing languages usually is not an easy task and developers also do not take time with that.
- Language packs is often incomplete not just on strings but also in language files.
- Almost no developers care to create a master language pack so its easier to people create their own pack ("Oh go on search for language files duplicate and rename them, create an install and so on!)
- Developers don't take time to clean up language files (duplicated strings, unused strings and so on)
- Many software programs do not care on contributing systems from translators (every time someone says "Go to our github and make a fork"...a translator is dead)
- There is no step-by-step guides for translators
This is the scenario foreign users face on any software.

Same goes here before I created the language packs. Language packs was uncompleted, they created errors on loading SuiteCRM and they was aimed to Sugar. Different language teams (german, Russian) had their own method for language packs. Even Spanish (installed with SuiteCRM and from official github was not completed on strings and files)
I had to learn how to create language pack (I did created a guide for that so others don't have to do the same errors). I created a system where everybody could join and collaborate, updated and created language packs that work.

But even now language master files are a mess and nobody cares on that. Each version update brings more troubles and solves none. I've been making some changes on master files but many PR are waiting, even if they are just "duplicated strings in same file"

So what is the solutions SalesAgility is going to do about this issues? Is there a plan to work on the code parts?

So before making big changes lets not ruin the system that is working now but start to solve issues that are problematic even with the system:
- Clean up master language
- Better english wordings
- Simplify descriptions to reduce the number of words. Technical explanations should be in wiki
- Refactor strings to use only one method for strings = value (actually is a completely mess of different formats on the same file)
- Remove formatting /html/code from translation because that breaks translations and do not allow it for load SuiteCRM
- Optimize the usage of language files by the system (less files, less calls)

So is there a plan to this or is not important?
Note: there are some PR on translations and there are not more because the ones are not approved so users that could be involved on this loose their time there.
Example: I have a PR waiting for so long to allow install SuiteCRM in many languages... not approved or commented!
|| SuiteCRM in your language crowdin.com/project/suitecrmtranslations ||
|| FAQ - Install/Update languages sites.google.com/site/translatingsuitecrm/faq ||
Last Edit: 3 years 2 weeks ago by horus68.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: pgr

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 2 weeks ago #31441

  • horus68
  • horus68's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 571
  • Thank you received: 142
  • Karma: 30
eggsurplus wrote:
Each barrier (can't find translation, not a complete translation, have to go through an awkward process to contribute, etc) is a dropping off point to go to a different CRM that has their language already supported.

Please post a list of troubles users face on using translations, then solutions could be considered good or not ar even proposed new ones.
As it is now it looks you already have a goal and a timeframe to implement, just not the tech implemented. So make that it more clear and open for all.

As for the usual issues you considered:

- "can't find translation"
SalesAgility is to blame: the actual link is almost hidden on the main page. You are going to a store listing. Good. Hope is not the only place to post those links.
I had also posted translations zip in Sourceforge so people could download outside Croudin (or transifex that was the first platform used). I even have a site with guides and faq for translators). Its good to see things moving on your side with the store. Do not forget the wiki!

- "have to go through an awkward process to contribute"
What?! Create an account, login, translate. No software install required, no code knowledge, no work loss.
Where is the problem?

- "Trouble to install - language do not parse and blank screen"
Confirmed. Some languages breaks and do not parse on the first install. I consider this solved for all languages by controlling some problematic strings. But code should be cleaned to avoid that kind of problems

- "Trouble to install - unzip problems"
Always a system issue, on permissions and code. Need to be simplified on the code side!

- "Trouble to install - Local language edits are not implemented"
Need to rebuild and clean cache! Almost no software needs to rebuild just to use languages. This is a major issue and should be solved on code side

- Translation size?
I'm sure someone has already complained about the translation size: 640493 words, 139 files on 266 folders, for a total files size of 1,44MB unzipped!

- "not a complete translation"
Accepted. There is a place to collaborate, we need more collaborators... but where can you find an official link to collaborate here?
You want to go for an automatic translation system? Go for it, its a decision a company needs to take and are allowed to take.
Just not with me. I will not have my name as translator for my language if that language has also automatic translation. This is a red line for me and an end of conversation for me!
|| SuiteCRM in your language crowdin.com/project/suitecrmtranslations ||
|| FAQ - Install/Update languages sites.google.com/site/translatingsuitecrm/faq ||
Last Edit: 3 years 2 weeks ago by horus68.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 2 weeks ago #31443

  • horus68
  • horus68's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 571
  • Thank you received: 142
  • Karma: 30
To consider your options, Crowdin allows different export methods
- Skip untranslated strings 
If checked, untranslated strings will be absent from the exported file.

- Export only approved translations 
Includes only texts that are both translated and approved. 
This will require additional efforts from your translators to approve all suggestions.

So you can have an exported files missing the english lines so you can merge that with the autotranslated ones.
Then you can create your 100% autotranslated (that will include the approved lines) ... and proper translators can have their own language packs not "all translated" but "well translated"!
|| SuiteCRM in your language crowdin.com/project/suitecrmtranslations ||
|| FAQ - Install/Update languages sites.google.com/site/translatingsuitecrm/faq ||
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 2 weeks ago #31450

  • eggsurplus
  • eggsurplus's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Posts: 93
  • Thank you received: 24
  • Karma: 7
Thanks for looking into those options. For now, going to run with figuring out:

(Not sure why the bbcode below isn't working)
  • how best to list the translations on store.suitecrm.com
  • get the zips easily downloadable
  • do so in a way that takes little or no time to upkeep
  • provide support on how to install the packages
  • provide directions on how to contribute to these translations

This will solve the immediate and biggest needs that prospective SuiteCRM users have. An important note: we have seen first hand over the years that a very small percentage actually ever bring up any sort of problem. What happens is that when presented with a barrier like running into an installation problem they just bounce to the next CRM. So when we see a significant number of live chats about languages alone since we launched the store it means that it is something that is causing a significant to bounce.

Some of the other problems you fairly listed we will be able to help with including the repair & rebuild and file permissions issues some run into.

Once that is going that may end up being where other places, such as the wiki, end up linking to.

This is great info. Thanks for listing these possible problem points and for your help with all of this!
Last Edit: 3 years 2 weeks ago by eggsurplus.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 2 weeks ago #31455

  • pgr
  • pgr's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9857
  • Thank you received: 1469
  • Karma: 349
Two things I'd like to ask:

- Jason, what is your relationship to SalesAgility at this point? (I ask with as positive expectation: despite my differences with you on the present topic, I regard any collaboration from you with this project as an excellent added value!)

- as we discuss the integration of language packs into the Store, it occurred to me that language packs shouldn't require a visit to any store, they should simply be selected from the SuiteCRM admin screens. We should just select the language(s) we want and Suite would download and install the packs by itself. This basically requires the Module Loader to be aware of the URL where it needs to fetch the packs, which the work we're discussing here anyway.

My SuiteCRM In-depth blog.
Thank you for always stating your SuiteCRM version, checking your logs, reading the Docs, and searching before you ask!
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Where can you find language pack downloads? 3 years 2 weeks ago #31460

  • horus68
  • horus68's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 571
  • Thank you received: 142
  • Karma: 30
eggsurplus wrote:
provide support on how to install the package

FAQs from me you can re-use/improve:
- Install a new language - TranslatingSuiteCRM - sites.google.com/site/translatingsuitecrm/faq/install_language
- Updating an installed language - TranslatingSuiteCRM - sites.google.com/site/translatingsuitecrm/faq/updatelanguage


eggsurplus wrote:
Provide directions on how to contribute to these translations
To use Crowdin:
- Enter Crowdin project here: crowdin.com/project/suitecrmtranslations
- How to use Crowdin? support.crowdin.com/for-translators/gett.../interface-overview/
|| SuiteCRM in your language crowdin.com/project/suitecrmtranslations ||
|| FAQ - Install/Update languages sites.google.com/site/translatingsuitecrm/faq ||
Last Edit: 3 years 2 weeks ago by horus68.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: eggsurplus
Moderators: horus68
Time to create page: 0.046 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum